it wouldnt be easter without...

So what is the Christian stance on Jews? Since all Christians are essentially 'half-jewish' in a sense. Do Christians reject Jews for not accepting Christ, or what? No one has ever been able to explain that to me. The reason I ask is, I have always been drawn more toward Judaism rather than Christianity...although I am not certain why...and I have yet to focus on any one single organized religion in all my 26 years...but I'm just curious if you have any insights on that aspect of it.

Thanks.

romans 11:28As far as the gospel is concerned, they are enemies on your account; but as far as election is concerned, they are loved on account of the patriarchs, 29for God's gifts and his call are irrevocable. 30Just as you who were at one time disobedient to God have now received mercy as a result of their disobedience, 31so they too have now become disobedient in order that they too may now receive mercy as a result of God's mercy to you. 32For God has bound all men over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.

 

OK - basically, the big gist of the entire Old testament (jewish bible) is God being angry again and again with His people, the jews, b/c they kept falling away from Him.  From the perspective of God in the O.T.,  He keeps doing these miracles and signs and wonders like parting the red sea, stopping the sun in the sky, turning back armies from jerusalem, etc...... and what He asks in return is that they remain faithful to Him.   The Israelites don't remain faithful and is detailed throughout the whole O.T. jewish bible, especially in places like Exodus where God lets an entire generation of Israelites die in the wilderness because of their rebellion/unbelief against God. 

The foundation of the jewish religion was the Law.  God gave the Law to Moses and told them to keep it.  The Law itself, read today, is insane.  Every sin needed to be atoned for, with different types of atonement like incense burning, animal sacrifice, ceremonial washings etc.   These were the prescriptions given to men to absolve the sins they commit. 

Now, get this - God brings the Israelites to a mountain and they straight up hear God directly and see the mountain engulfed in thunder and lightning and a cloud.  They make a covenant with God there, saying they'll do everything the LORD tells them to do.  So Moses goes up the mountain :

Ex. 32:1 When the people saw that Moses was so long in coming down from the mountain, they gathered around Aaron and said, "Come, make us gods who will go before us. As for this fellow Moses who brought us up out of Egypt, we don't know what has happened to him."

and this is where Aaron makes them a golden calf, they worship it, and God is so angry with the israelites that He sends Moses back down the mountain to stop them.  The Israelites level of obedience was ZERO, as was their faith.  So God, in my opinion and based on my interpretation and experience (and i can cite scripture to back it up) pretty much brings in the YOKE of the LAW to bring the israelites in line.    Moses comes back down a second time, with the ten commandments and from that time on the mountain with God Moses also receives the rest of the Law... like the order for worship, sin atonement, priestly duties/garments, temple/tabernacle furtniture etc...

The Law functions as a tutor to bring man to God and ask for mercy and grace.  No man can complete the Law because no man is sinless (except for christ, if you buy the N.T.).   The Israelites were BOUND under this sin because the Law was constantly in their face because they were constantly bound into having to atone for sins left and right.  For instance, if you had a "wet dream," jewish law said you had to leave the camp for like 7 days because you were unclean.  If a woman was on her period, she had to do similar and men couldn't touch her or theyd be considered unclean as well and have to atone somehow and become ceremonially clean again.  If someone broke the sabbath, blew up in anger, stole something, lied, etc...... there were prescriptions for how to atone for this as well.

THE ISRAELITES COULD NO LONGER GET AWAY FROM THEIR SIN and were constantly reminded of it.  There was so much sin (think of it like this: if there is a God, and He is perfect, how ridiculously high must His standards be to men who are imperfect by nature?) that the high priest would atone like once a year for all the sins that the Israelites committed and didn't even realize yet still needed to be atoned for. 

This was a lesson in self righteousness, to show the jews that it wasn't about the works that you did or whether you fulfilled more of the Law than somebody else - but that since scripture says that the "wages of sin is death" that they were all together bound under sin and all of them needed forgiveness of their tresspasses to be right in God's eyes. In short, the Law brought in knowledge of SIN.

Think of it like this - if there were no police would you know that, say, driving 90mph on the highway was a bad thing?  Without the LAW, there was no knowledge of sin!  But God brought the Law in and the Israelites saw how fast or, say, bad they really were.  and THEN they knew what they needed God for. 
The Law wasn't meant to kill, which is what it definitely did if people tried to live by it - Because they COUDLNT POSSIBLY live by that kind of a standard, they were always sinning.  So they needed something more, and throughout the O.T. God promises a "new covenant"

So watch this:

Jeremiah 31:31 "The time is coming," declares the LORD,
       "when I will make a new covenant
       with the house of Israel
       and with the house of Judah.

 32 It will not be like the covenant
       I made with their forefathers
       when I took them by the hand
       to lead them out of Egypt,
       because they broke my covenant,
       though I was a husband to  them,  "
       declares the LORD.

 33 "This is the covenant I will make with the house of Israel
       after that time," declares the LORD.
       "I will put my law in their minds
       and write it on their hearts.
       I will be their God,
       and they will be my people.

 34 No longer will a man teach his neighbor,
       or a man his brother, saying, 'Know the LORD,'
       because they will all know me,
       from the least of them to the greatest,"
       declares the LORD.
       "For I will forgive their wickedness
       and will remember their sins no more."

 

verse 34 speaks of the future inclusion of the gentiles.  At the time, only the jews knew the Lord.  But now, if you say Lord (true or false?) everyone knows who is being talked about, right?  hhehe.  It's right there in the jewish holy book prophet of jeremiah.    Or if that's not enough,

Isaiah 42:5 This is what God the LORD says—
       he who created the heavens and stretched them out,
       who spread out the earth and all that comes out of it,
       who gives breath to its people,
       and life to those who walk on it:

 6 "I, the LORD, have called you in righteousness;
       I will take hold of your hand.
       I will keep you and will make you
       to be a covenant for the people
       and a light for the Gentiles,

 7 to open eyes that are blind,
       to free captives from prison
       and to release from the dungeon those who sit in darkness.

or Isaiah 49:22 This is what the Sovereign LORD says:
       "See, I will beckon to the Gentiles,
       I will lift up my banner to the peoples;
       they will bring your sons in their arms
       and carry your daughters on their shoulders

 verse 6 "a light for the Gentiles"  - verse 22 "will beckon" to the gentiles. 

But, see, God was peeved again and again and again with the jews for their unbelief.  they stopped performing the Law, they started worshipping other gods again and again.  So God said He finally had enough (for a time) and was basically like  "if you (jews) don't wanna listen to me, I'll go to the gentiles."  Which brings us right back to the first verse i wrote all the way at the beginning of this long rant of a reply.  They were disobedient and God told them awesome quotes like :

Moses on his virtual deathbed, prophecying that after he dies, the people will go back to being rebellious:

 

Deuteronomy 31:16 And the LORD said to Moses: "You are going to rest with your fathers, and these people will soon prostitute themselves to the foreign gods of the land they are entering. They will forsake me and break the covenant I made with them. 17 On that day I will become angry with them and forsake them; I will hide my face from them, and they will be destroyed. Many disasters and difficulties will come upon them, and on that day they will ask, 'Have not these disasters come upon us because our God is not with us?' 18 And I will certainly hide my face on that day because of all their wickedness in turning to other gods.

 

God says he's going to "HIDE HIS FACE" from the jews for their disobedience.  Dont believe it?  here it is again:

Deut. 32:19 The LORD saw this and rejected them
       because he was angered by his sons and daughters.

 20 "I will hide my face from them," he said,
       "and see what their end will be;
       for they are a perverse generation,
       children who are unfaithful.

 21 They made me jealous by what is no god
       and angered me with their worthless idols.
       I will make them envious by those who are not a people;
       I will make them angry by a nation that has no understanding.

(verse 21 , the nation with no understanding and the people who are not a people refer back to the first verse i quoted, again, and means the gentiles.)

Ezekiel speaks of when God will finally stop hiding His face from them (the "face" here in these scriptures is Christ)

Ez. 39:28 Then they will know that I am the LORD their God, for though I sent them into exile among the nations, I will gather them to their own land, not leaving any behind. 29 I will no longer hide my face from them, for I will pour out my Spirit on the house of Israel, declares the Sovereign LORD."

God even prophecies through Isaiah that He Himself (the LORD) will be something that the Israelites stumble over:

Isaiah 8:13 The LORD Almighty is the one you are to regard as holy,
       he is the one you are to fear,
       he is the one you are to dread,

 14 and he will be a sanctuary;
       but for both houses of Israel he will be 
       a stone that causes men to stumble
       and a rock that makes them fall.
       And for the people of Jerusalem he will be
       a trap and a snare.

 15 Many of them will stumble;
       they will fall and be broken,
       they will be snared and captured."

 

To close,

Romans 9:30What then shall we say? That the Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, have obtained it, a righteousness that is by faith; 31but Israel, who pursued a law of righteousness, has not attained it. 32Why not? Because they pursued it not by faith but as if it were by works. They stumbled over the "stumbling stone." 33As it is written:
   "See, I lay in Zion a stone that causes men to stumble
      and a rock that makes them fall,
   and the one who trusts in him will never be put to shame."

the Law couldn't save men because men couldnt live up to it, the Law could only show men their sin, thusly verse 31 of that.   The "stumbling stone"  is the _faith_ talked about in verse 32 - the old familiar christian concept of "belief" in christ.

Why?

because though the israelites were making atonements for sin, again and again and again, Christ came and fulfilled the requirement of the Law (the atonement) ONCE and for all because He was the perfect sacrifice (a man without sin, therefore not in violation of the Law)  and the crucifixion was forgiven by Him even though He was the Perfect Man and should never have had to be condemned to death because not only did He not commit any crimes, He had never sinned!  The crime He was killed for was actually blasphemy and the sign that hung over His cross said, as an accusation of crime:  "Here is Jesus, King of the Jews" 

heavy.

Hebrews 9:13The blood of goats and bulls and the ashes of a heifer sprinkled on those who are ceremonially unclean sanctify them so that they are outwardly clean. 14How much more, then, will the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself unblemished to God, cleanse our consciences from acts that lead to death, so that we may serve the living God! 15For this reason Christ is the mediator of a new covenant, that those who are called may receive the promised eternal inheritance—now that he has died as a ransom to set them free from the sins committed under the first covenant.

Hebrews 10:1The law is only a shadow of the good things that are coming—not the realities themselves. For this reason it can never, by the same sacrifices repeated endlessly year after year, make perfect those who draw near to worship. 2If it could, would they not have stopped being offered? For the worshipers would have been cleansed once for all, and would no longer have felt guilty for their sins. 3But those sacrifices are an annual reminder of sins, 4because it is impossible for the blood of bulls and goats to take away sins.

 

 

i hope this clarifies the link between christians and jews.  any more questions, even if theyre purely for an informative standpoint, I'd be happy to try and cite scripture and answer for you.

 

So...are you saying that Christians...are in essence...what Jews are supposed to have become following Christ? That Christianity is the completion of a journey, essentially, that the Jews started?

I'm going to say Yes to that question, with some sidenotes.  1) focusing on Christians, rather than on Christ, is like the cardinal no-no in christianity.  Men are, according to scripture, fallen beings (consequence of adam and eve's decision) and to focus on them is to take away the focus from where it belongs - on Christ, according to scripture.   This is why there's so many stupid people out there, running their mouths about things they know nothing about - dressing up their opinions as the Word and Law and Will of God when they very well could be fooling themselves that they're even christians in the first place and so many people listen to them.  The focus is on these men, and not the Christ of the Bible.  Not everyone who says they're a christian is a christian, as illustrated here in the gospel  of Matthew, quoting Jesus:

Matthew 7:21"Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?' 23Then I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!'

 

-The thing is this:  1) that the O.T. Law and jewish faith was a physical foreshadow of the spiritual things to come in Christ.  Like, the physical Exodus was a physical foreshadowing of the spiritual exodus, the liberation through Christ's atonement sacrifice (which is why He's called the Lamb of God, leading us back to the Passover topic we started with)  from man's slavery to sin.  God showed man, through the Law, that man needs God's grace and mercy because they can't rely on their own WORKS as a way to make themselves righteous and basically work themselves into heaven/God's favor/whatever.  But then, if it was a righteousness by works, they were the authors of their own salvation and their righteousness came from themselves!  So God had to use the Law to show them that NO MAN is righteous in Himself, that ALL men are bound under the Law because all men violate the Law because all men sin.

Other examples of the physical foreshadowing of the spiritual event to come:  passover lamb to christ the lamb,  exodus from egypt (physical slavery) to the exodus from the Law and sin (spiritual slavery), the Law itself to the One who fulfilled the Law (didn't sin) - Christ.    there's actually tons, but im running out of time...  i can cite more later if you want.  Some of them take more explanation than others and i cant afford to get off on that kind of a tangent right this minute.

But, look at it like this:  The Law was a set of rules and requirements, right?  So if that was a shadow of the things to come - look at this analogy.  It's kindof like handpuppets...  if you have light behind your hand, the shadow casted is the same shape as the shape you're making with your hand.  If the Law is a shadow, it makes sense that the light (God) shines on Christ and the Law is actually His shadow, considering Christ came and fulfilled it - or, rather, EMBODIED the complete requirement of the Law.

I'm going to quote the entire  chapter 11 of Romans, because this is one of the main chapters of the Bible that explains the relation of the jews and christians to eachother and to God.  Pay close attention to the verses from 7 to the end...

 

1I ask then: Did God reject his people? By no means! I am an Israelite myself, a descendant of Abraham, from the tribe of Benjamin. 2God did not reject his people, whom he foreknew. Don't you know what the Scripture says in the passage about Elijah—how he appealed to God against Israel: 3"Lord, they have killed your prophets and torn down your altars; I am the only one left, and they are trying to kill me"? 4And what was God's answer to him? "I have reserved for myself seven thousand who have not bowed the knee to Baal." 5So too, at the present time there is a remnant chosen by grace. 6And if by grace, then it is no longer by works; if it were, grace would no longer be grace.

 7What then? What Israel sought so earnestly it did not obtain, but the elect did. The others were hardened, 8as it is written:
   "God gave them a spirit of stupor,
      eyes so that they could not see
      and ears so that they could not hear,
   to this very day." 9And David says:
   "May their table become a snare and a trap,
      a stumbling block and a retribution for them.
 10May their eyes be darkened so they cannot see,
      and their backs be bent forever."

Ingrafted Branches

 11Again I ask: Did they stumble so as to fall beyond recovery? Not at all! Rather, because of their transgression, salvation has come to the Gentiles to make Israel envious. 12But if their transgression means riches for the world, and their loss means riches for the Gentiles, how much greater riches will their fullness bring!

 13I am talking to you Gentiles. Inasmuch as I am the apostle to the Gentiles, I make much of my ministry 14in the hope that I may somehow arouse my own people to envy and save some of them. 15For if their rejection is the reconciliation of the world, what will their acceptance be but life from the dead? 16If the part of the dough offered as firstfruits is holy, then the whole batch is holy; if the root is holy, so are the branches.

 17If some of the branches have been broken off, and you, though a wild olive shoot, have been grafted in among the others and now share in the nourishing sap from the olive root, 18do not boast over those branches. If you do, consider this: You do not support the root, but the root supports you. 19You will say then, "Branches were broken off so that I could be grafted in." 20Granted. But they were broken off because of unbelief, and you stand by faith. Do not be arrogant, but be afraid. 21For if God did not spare the natural branches, he will not spare you either.

 22Consider therefore the kindness and sternness of God: sternness to those who fell, but kindness to you, provided that you continue in his kindness. Otherwise, you also will be cut off. 23And if they do not persist in unbelief, they will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again. 24After all, if you were cut out of an olive tree that is wild by nature, and contrary to nature were grafted into a cultivated olive tree, how much more readily will these, the natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree!

All Israel Will Be Saved

 25I do not want you to be ignorant of this mystery, brothers, so that you may not be conceited: Israel has experienced a hardening in part until the full number of the Gentiles has come in. 26And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written:
   "The deliverer will come from Zion;
      he will turn godlessness away from Jacob.
 27And this is my covenant with them
      when I take away their sins."

 28As far as the gospel is concerned, they are enemies on your account; but as far as election is concerned, they are loved on account of the patriarchs, 29for God's gifts and his call are irrevocable. 30Just as you who were at one time disobedient to God have now received mercy as a result of their disobedience, 31so they too have now become disobedient in order that they too may now receive mercy as a result of God's mercy to you. 32For God has bound all men over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.

Doxology

 33Oh, the depth of the riches of the wisdom and knowledge of God!
      How unsearchable his judgments,
      and his paths beyond tracing out!
 34"Who has known the mind of the Lord?
      Or who has been his counselor?" 
 35"Who has ever given to God,
      that God should repay him?"
 36For from him and through him and to him are all things.
      To him be the glory forever! Amen.

 

-  Christians are,in a way, a STEP in the fulfillment of God's plan (according to scripture).  But the N.T. clearly states that God will again call the jews back to Him.   Considering that ISLAM, CHRISTIANITY, and JUDAISM all trace their ancestry to Abraham, it'd be an interesting day indeed if/when the jews and christians unite...............    that event would for sure bring the eyes of the entire world back to the God of the hebrew scriptures and the later christian fulfillment scriptures.  The O.T. and N.T.    In christianity, you can't have the one without the other.

 

 

 

So what do you think of the whole "Jews for Jesus" thing? Does that 'movement' lend itself to what we're talking about here?

absolutely.  In scripture, the old testament especially - the idea of the "remnant" is a key theme.  It is the few who remained true to God's heart when the rest of the people went corrupt.   The history of man just about repeats itself, and I think this is applicable today in our society.  80% of america claims christianity, but america is also the most morally corrupt, selfish place in the world just about.  rulers claim Christ but make war, people claim Christ but don't have any idea what it is they're claiming.  The Bible says in the beginning God made man in His image.  But what man does now, after the fall, is make God in OUR image.  Which means people have no idea what the bible says and don't have any kind of personal relationship with God (which is what i can say in good conscience that i have) yet blabber religiosities here and there and spew opinions dressed in Jesus clothes.   BUT, just like back in the day with the O.T. remnant, there is a remnant in today's church.  People who think twice about waht they say because they fear misrepresenting God.   People who sit down and pray and wait until they get an answer before they act one way or another.  People who claim Christ and exude LOVE and PEACE , or at least are seriusly broken that they're not more loving or more peaceful and pray to God to bring them to a higher level of them.  (i'm SO broken that i still act the way  I do sometimes...)

the remnant.  and I think the Jews for Jesus fit this description nicely, although probably even some of them don't even have it.  But absolutely, as a whole, the jews for Jesus movement is HIGHLY and AbSOLUTELY focused on the concept of Old Testament foreshadowing of the New Testament revelation.  Keep in mind that the guys who wrote the Bible N.T. were all jews... Paul, the author of 2/3 of the New Testament, was actually a member of the ruling class of the religious elite of jewish culture - the pharisees - and was a man who killed christians and literally hunted them down and ruthlessly tore them from their households and threw them into prison indiscriminately.  This is all detailed in ACTS... 

See, when Jesus came - he rolled with the prostitutes and tax collectors.  But the religious leaders LOVED their positions of honor among the people so much that they were what Jesus referred to them as "white washed tombs."  They looked good on the outside but on the inside were full of "dead men's bones."   Pharisees excelled in the study and interpretation of the Law and viewed themselves as righteous based on their own works (self righteousness) and condemned people all the time, judging them and looking down on them b/c of their sins without mercy.  In fact, this is beautifully illustrated in the gospels with the story about the woman caught in adultery that the pharisees brought before Jesus:

John 8:3 The teachers of the law and the Pharisees brought in a woman caught in adultery. They made her stand before the group 4and said to Jesus, "Teacher, this woman was caught in the act of adultery. 5In the Law Moses commanded us to stone such women. Now what do you say?" 6They were using this question as a trap, in order to have a basis for accusing him.

   But Jesus bent down and started to write on the ground with his finger. 7When they kept on questioning him, he straightened up and said to them, "If any one of you is without sin, let him be the first to throw a stone at her." 8Again he stooped down and wrote on the ground.

 9At this, those who heard began to go away one at a time, the older ones first, until only Jesus was left, with the woman still standing there. 10Jesus straightened up and asked her, "Woman, where are they? Has no one condemned you?"

 11"No one, sir," she said.
      "Then neither do I condemn you," Jesus declared. "Go now and leave your life of sin."

 

The pharisees actually disliked Jesus because He hung out with the people He did - they couldnt believe He'd associate with the prostitutes and tax collectors - but what did He tell them?

Matthew 9:11 When the Pharisees saw this, they asked his disciples, "Why does your teacher eat with tax collectors and 'sinners'?"

 12On hearing this, Jesus said, "It is not the healthy who need a doctor, but the sick. 13But go and learn what this means: 'I desire mercy, not sacrifice.' For I have not come to call the righteous, but sinners."

In fact, scripture goes so far to say (old and new testament) that Jesus was delivered up out of envy by the religious elite. 

Mark 15:9 "Do you want me to release to you the king of the Jews?" asked Pilate, 10knowing it was out of envy that the chief priests had handed Jesus over to him. 11But the chief priests stirred up the crowd to have Pilate release Barabbas instead.

See, the jews thought the Messiah was going to come as a great War Hero or something and release them from the oppression they were under circa Jesus time (the Romans ruled the jews back then),  but Jesus surprised them by coming as a servant of all and not a master of all to be served. 

 

anyway, for one I can't find the O.T. verse about delivered up out of envy right now.  I'm pretty sure it's Isaiah...... blah.  I'll find it if it's there.  But for two, and to go back to the original question, yeah - I've met a handful of Jews for Jesus and they're all on the same page that the Old Testament is a foreshadow of Christ right down to the temple furniture.   Big parts of the books of Moses were dedicated to God's instruction in great DETAIL on making the temple and temple furniture...actually when God tells Moses about the temple and instructs them of these things He tells Moses to

Exodus 25:40 See that you make them according to the pattern shown you on the mountain.

and Hebrews backs it up with

Hebrews 8:5They [the jewish priests] serve at a sanctuary that is a copy and shadow of what is in heaven. This is why Moses was warned when he was about to build the tabernacle: "See to it that you make everything according to the pattern shown you on the mountain."

so, like I was saying - the jews for jesus believe, as should any educated christian in my opinion, that the old testament temple, tabernacle, furniture, etc were detailed foreshadowings of what was to come , each of which is representative of Christ in their own unique ways.  The type of furniture, material it was made out of, and size or number were all, according to many scholars (especially in the jews for jesus circle) are all specifically designed to point to Christ.  For example, in the temple the main furniture were the "basin" for ceremonial washings, the "altar" for burnt sacrifice," the golden monorah, the table of shewbread, the ark of the covenant, etc etc etc etc etc.  I can't possibly go into detail on this right now.  I'm sure you could find incredible studies on it though.  There's a dude named Perry Stone who sells videos about this, and I bought a few of them and if one were able to get through all the "glory to Gods" and "hallelujiahs," the things are absoluitely mind blowing.  He even sets up a model of the tabernacle of Moses and another of the temple of Solomon, details them exactly per the Bible, and goes hugely in depth citing their reference to Christ and cites tons and tons of scripture. 

Not to say I agree with all his doctrine, but those series are fascinating and I'm sure you could find a text version somewhere. 

BUT, what I would totally recommend - considering basically all I'm doing is regurgitating scripture here - is grab a Bible or go someplace like www.biblegateway.com and read the book of Hebrews.  This goes way into depth on the jewish/christian connection.  Romans has some good stuff on this subject too (as, believe it or not, do most of the books of the N.T.) but honestly, to research this stuff it's difficult if one doesn't have any background knowledge of the O.T.   Like, Galatians talks about the symbolism of Abraham and his children and quotes tons of O.T. stuff, but if one hasn't read Genesis or doesn't know the story of Isaac or whatever, it can be hard...

Regardless, I stand by my recommendation of reading the entire book of Hebrews.  It's my favorite book of the Bible because it goes so in depth on exactly what we're talking about, and kindof does brief overviews of O.T. topics that the reader might or might not be familiar with. 

 

^{anything else, lemme know.  I'm not awesome or anything, but I do know what I'd hazard to say is probably a pretty considerable amount about the Bible, especially in this day and age.  I remember when I started reading it, I'd underline all the stuff i thought was bullshit and by the time i read it all the way through i had to go back and throw away my first Bible for all the stuff i had done to it........  and that's why I guess I'm as outspoken as I am today- because I came from the total opposite side of the spectrum and was NOT motivated to read the thing because I was looking to become a convert! hahaha}

 

 

 

 

    I thought this was truly interesting stuff, I read everything including comments and all and you make a very valid point. You seem very knowledgable on this subject. Are you a professor or something?

nah im not a professor or anything.  im a missionary in LA.  my job entails , for the most part, biblical counseling for missionaries in training.  which sounds a lot more important than it really is, i think..

anyway.  like i was telling salerno - insinuating i guess, is that I make an interesting point because the Bible makes an interesting point.  and I didnt grow up reading it but in fact grew up against it so its not like this is something id been conditioned to believe since i was a kid.   The thing is that there's a lotta people out there with plenty of different opinions and urban legends about the Bible and what christianity really is, and unfortunately nobody really cares enough to check the facts for themselves.   Don't wanna become a "sheep" yet can't avoid it cuz they're sheparded by what people tell them, whether they like it or not.  People are ready to slam the thing (like i used to be) but not ready to try to see what its really all about.  It's like doing a paper on a book you have to read for school, but you buy cliff notes from some kid who never read the book in the first place.  Second hand information coming from an uninformed source..

Some people are able to look behind the "veil" and actually check out what it has to say; others maybe have hearts too hardened by the world or whatever to be able to look at it objectively.  This is a scriptural concept as well...

i guess the point is that if Im making valid points here then this whole thing warrants further consideration.  reading more for oneself perhaps, i dunno.  BUt honestly, the stuff i say is only pulled from scripture and maybe honed a little bit for the audience - i rip it off from the BIble and the Bible actually says it SO much better than I do.  LIke i recommended to Salerno, Hebrews is an incredible book and if you thought i was interesting, that thing is over the top with information on the Old and New testaments.

The book of Acts actually chronicles how the christian church was born, which is fascinating even from a historical standpoint. I'll close with this, i guess, because i dont know really what else to say right now...  it's a sermon by a guy named Peter, right after Jesus death and resurrection.  He was jewish and he's heavy on the quotes from Old testament.  This is pretty much, literally day one of the christian church right here being described.  Arguably, this is the first christian sermon ever preached.

 

 Acts1:22"Men of Israel, listen to this: Jesus of Nazareth was a man accredited by God to you by miracles, wonders and signs, which God did among you through him, as you yourselves know. 23This man was handed over to you by God's set purpose and foreknowledge; and you, with the help of wicked men, put him to death by nailing him to the cross. 24But God raised him from the dead, freeing him from the agony of death, because it was impossible for death to keep its hold on him. 25David said about him:
   " 'I saw the Lord always before me.
      Because he is at my right hand,
      I will not be shaken.
 26Therefore my heart is glad and my tongue rejoices;
      my body also will live in hope,
 27because you will not abandon me to the grave,
      nor will you let your Holy One see decay.
 28You have made known to me the paths of life;
      you will fill me with joy in your presence.'

 29"Brothers, I can tell you confidently that the patriarch David died and was buried, and his tomb is here to this day. 30But he was a prophet and knew that God had promised him on oath that he would place one of his descendants on his throne. 31Seeing what was ahead, he spoke of the resurrection of the Christ, that he was not abandoned to the grave, nor did his body see decay. 32God has raised this Jesus to life, and we are all witnesses of the fact. 33Exalted to the right hand of God, he has received from the Father the promised Holy Spirit and has poured out what you now see and hear. 34For David did not ascend to heaven, and yet he said,
   " 'The Lord said to my Lord:
      "Sit at my right hand
 35until I make your enemies
      a footstool for your feet." '

 36"Therefore let all Israel be assured of this: God has made this Jesus, whom you crucified, both Lord and Christ."

 37When the people heard this, they were cut to the heart and said to Peter and the other apostles, "Brothers, what shall we do?"

 38Peter replied, "Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. 39The promise is for you and your children and for all who are far off—for all whom the Lord our God will call."

 40With many other words he warned them; and he pleaded with them, "Save yourselves from this corrupt generation." 41Those who accepted his message were baptized, and about three thousand were added to their number that day.

The Fellowship of the Believers

 42They devoted themselves to the apostles' teaching and to the fellowship, to the breaking of bread and to prayer

Randy takes the win, place, and show when it comes to super-long comments.

Holy crap, I didn't read any of this but I agree with Joe.  I'm totally going to read this when I'm in a clearer state of mind.